[00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:11.360] We are recording the answers to the age-ism questions. [00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:14.760] Let's just make sure we're rolling. [00:00:14.760 --> 00:00:22.520] We are and episode two facing age-ism. [00:00:22.520 --> 00:00:29.640] How does it feel to be looking for a job at the age? [00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.080] Well, you're at over 50. [00:00:33.080 --> 00:00:34.880] How do you know age-ism is real? [00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.480] Let's break it down. [00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:38.920] The first signs of age-ism. [00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:44.740] When did you first realize your age was working against you in the job market? [00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:51.720] Was there a specific rejection or interview that made it clear? [00:00:51.720 --> 00:01:07.480] Not really. I can't recall one particular moment that stands out from any other moment. [00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:29.260] But I will say that prior to losing my position at Hatch in May of 2023, the longest period [00:01:29.260 --> 00:01:36.560] of unemployment for me across my whole life was three months, and that was the three months [00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:47.140] that took me to get the job, the last job I had, so you could say that because prior [00:01:47.140 --> 00:01:56.960] to that three months, goodness, it maybe took me a month to find a new job. [00:01:56.960 --> 00:02:01.080] What I talked about being like, though, in the previous episode, so I'm not going to [00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:13.160] get into that, the age-ism, I guess, you could say, with that three-month period that I mentioned, [00:02:13.160 --> 00:02:26.400] was kind of a dipping your toe in the water moment for, I guess, not dipping my toe. [00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:33.880] It was the beginning of the storm, like you could see the clouds on the horizon, and [00:02:33.880 --> 00:02:39.000] you were looking at it and going, "Yeah, I see it, but I don't think it's coming my [00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:43.120] way right now." [00:02:43.120 --> 00:03:01.140] After the six months at Hatch and was let go, I started my job search and within, I would [00:03:01.140 --> 00:03:21.780] say that was May of 2023, I would say by July or August, so you're talking six to eight [00:03:21.780 --> 00:03:39.020] weeks into it, that's when I started to realize that my age could be working against me, and [00:03:39.020 --> 00:03:46.020] that kind of sucked. [00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:52.520] First question, did recruiters or hiring managers ever comment on your age directly or indirectly, [00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.980] if so, how? [00:03:56.980 --> 00:04:03.720] It only came up in conversation when I was asking them about it from a strategic point [00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:18.320] of view, like how, basically, how could I show my experience without showing how much [00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:25.840] or how long I had been doing it for? [00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:34.600] So that was really the only time I spoke to a hiring manager about it. [00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:41.880] Next question, have I noticed patterns and how companies communicate with you compared [00:04:41.880 --> 00:04:51.800] to younger job seekers? [00:04:51.800 --> 00:05:03.400] I don't know the answer to that simply because I don't know what other job seekers are getting [00:05:03.400 --> 00:05:06.240] in terms of their replies. [00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:19.240] I can tell you this, the things I am getting are so formulaic, it's ridiculous how templated [00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:22.320] they are. [00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:31.360] I'm really surprised I don't see variable names inside the email templates that I received [00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:33.960] for rejection. [00:05:33.960 --> 00:05:44.200] And the emails are brilliant because I will send an application online, submit it, fill [00:05:44.200 --> 00:05:52.000] out their forms, cover letter, spend time customizing everything because I would like [00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.480] an interview, you know, I can get my foot in the door. [00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:07.720] I interview really well, I'm conversational, I treat it like I would a client meeting, [00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:13.440] and clients, I love hanging out with clients, they are interesting people, so I would think [00:06:13.440 --> 00:06:19.880] the same thing, someone interviewing me, I would be curious about their role in the [00:06:19.880 --> 00:06:26.760] company, how long they've been there, what it feels like, etc. [00:06:26.760 --> 00:06:42.880] So back to the point, I do not notice a difference, however, I notice a shift in complete loss [00:06:42.880 --> 00:06:55.840] of humanity in the job search process, it's void of people in the communications to get [00:06:55.840 --> 00:07:10.600] an email from a person that is not sent from a no reply at dot dot dot email address is [00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:21.040] the exception and not the rule, it's rare to get a hey, thanks for taking the time to [00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:27.720] apply, I'm sorry to email you about this news. [00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:34.200] Onto the next question, the unspoken rules, what industries or roles seem most biased against [00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:35.360] older workers? [00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:45.240] Well, I can tell you this, today I was reading an article where the person or boss that [00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:55.400] needed someone hired told the hiring manager, I don't want anyone born before 1990. [00:07:55.400 --> 00:08:00.040] So if they're older than 35, I don't want them. [00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:13.080] So apparently 35 years old is the new quote, old, unquote, in the technology sector. [00:08:13.080 --> 00:08:21.800] That's where I apply my trade as a software designer. [00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:36.120] So technology very biased against older workers when the people inside the company tend to [00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:44.440] all be on the young end of the spectrum. [00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:50.120] Next question, do you feel like experience is valued or does it seem like companies prefer [00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:53.240] younger, cheaper workers? [00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:57.880] Right now, my feeling is everybody's going on price. [00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:09.000] They don't want to spend a lot of money for an, you know, someone with an incredible experience [00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:10.520] in value. [00:09:10.520 --> 00:09:22.120] Now, partly that's due to the economy and how things are going outside the industry. [00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:33.920] But by and large, it hasn't really changed much since May of 2023 that has felt they [00:09:33.920 --> 00:09:40.400] are going for very young, cheap people. [00:09:40.400 --> 00:09:50.040] So for example, they will ask for someone with three to five years experience. [00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:59.480] And someone with that level of experience is applying for a senior position. [00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:03.000] How is that possible? [00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:16.720] No other industry, profession, et cetera, where, you know, white collar profession where you [00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:31.400] have to have very specific knowledge, skills, abilities, all combined in this soup to be [00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:40.720] able to do what it is I do, me and hundreds of thousands of others. [00:10:40.720 --> 00:11:03.360] And the, that experience is really, I mean, that is where the magic happens, is people [00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:09.200] that have had seven to ten years experience. [00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:10.200] I mean, goodness. [00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:17.880] I wouldn't put anyone, I wouldn't ten years, minimum for a senior role, minimum. [00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:25.720] I mean, ten years, you should be definitely not junior, but you should be kind of one [00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.040] of the regular people. [00:11:28.040 --> 00:11:40.680] After the, you know, a staff designer with ten years, you know, five years, you know, [00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:44.600] you're just coming out of junior in my mind. [00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.000] First four years, you're a junior. [00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:54.440] Like think about it this way, you go to four years of high school. [00:11:54.440 --> 00:12:07.600] You do four years of college, so why not have four years of professional experience before [00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:17.200] you can call yourself anything other than a junior? [00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:18.360] You're not a senior. [00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:24.000] Anyway, let's move on. [00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:30.880] One is have you seen job listings with coded language like digital native or fast paced [00:12:30.880 --> 00:12:35.960] environment that you suspect are dog whistles for younger candidates? [00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:45.840] Yes, I have seen that without question in my industry, which is technology and design. [00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:54.840] It is unquestionably, it's unquestionably there. [00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.760] The examples you give are great, and I've seen others. [00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:04.000] Numbers three, trying to work around it. [00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:11.200] Have I adjusted my resume, LinkedIn or interview style to hide my age? [00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.040] What strategies have you tried? [00:13:14.040 --> 00:13:27.360] I have with resume and LinkedIn basically any documentation, anything that documents my [00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:36.080] work history has the starting year and the ending year. [00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:44.200] I don't have December of 2000 to May of 2023. [00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:57.540] I just have 2000 to 2023 trying to keep it much simpler, so I removed anything number [00:13:57.540 --> 00:14:05.440] based that related to time to put me down somewhere on a calendar. [00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.740] Other than the year. [00:14:08.740 --> 00:14:18.880] Then I also looked at the copy, just the language, and if any of my language was referring to [00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:34.360] anything that would reveal my age, think of it as you're in a poker game and you just [00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:37.000] don't want to reveal your cards. [00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:44.160] That's exactly the approach and strategy I used. [00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:56.160] Next bullet is what responses have I received when pushing back against age assumptions? [00:14:56.160 --> 00:15:02.480] The times I've brought it up, and I haven't really pushed back because, again, no one [00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:09.800] will admit if they're called out on it, they will not admit it. [00:15:09.800 --> 00:15:20.760] They may be blind to the fact that they're doing it because I've got to tell you, I think [00:15:20.760 --> 00:15:32.720] ageism, while people can be overt and say nobody older than 1990, I really think most [00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.760] of it is buried in the subconscious. [00:15:36.760 --> 00:15:41.920] It's not really a conscious decision. [00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:46.800] It's more you want someone your age or younger. [00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:55.240] It's kind of the subconscious decision-making I think that goes on. [00:15:55.240 --> 00:16:04.640] And all the people I did have discussions with about ageism said it definitely exists. [00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:08.200] Number four, this is the last number. [00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:15.120] How does it feel to be seen as too old for jobs you're perfectly qualified for? [00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:29.240] You know, I actually feel good to be considered too old because that means I have a lot of [00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:39.760] experience, I have a lot of value and I have both of those warehouses of both. [00:16:39.760 --> 00:16:48.640] I have so much experience that I can do a lot of the work in my head in conversation [00:16:48.640 --> 00:16:59.720] with a client so that, you know, after two or three meetings, hell not even that, I've [00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:10.520] walked out of a first meeting and able to draw, you know, workflow diagrams easily. [00:17:10.520 --> 00:17:14.320] Designing them in my head is we're talking to kind of figure out where the edges of the [00:17:14.320 --> 00:17:17.680] project are. [00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:29.320] So yeah, I don't, you know, I see it as a compliment not as a criticism. [00:17:29.320 --> 00:17:34.600] Because it made you question your abilities, your future or your self-worth. [00:17:34.600 --> 00:17:47.680] No, other things have, actually, initially it did bother me because I was unconscious [00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:59.600] to the fact that it was triggering me and my emotions were driving the bus. [00:17:59.600 --> 00:18:08.520] And once I became aware of that, which was probably December of 2023 towards the end [00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:21.360] of the year, I really kind of woke up about my value professionally. [00:18:21.360 --> 00:18:31.000] So to sum that up initially, yes, it made me question my worth. [00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:48.400] So at that particular time, I was at the very beginning of, or should I say, early stages [00:18:48.400 --> 00:19:04.240] of divorce, becoming a real path, hi guys. [00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:11.240] What would you say, next question, what would you say to employers who dismiss older job [00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:16.960] seekers without a second thought? [00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:30.440] Honestly, they are losing and missing out on incredible talent. [00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.280] And I look at it this way. [00:19:33.280 --> 00:19:44.680] Even with my level of experience, my cost, $20,000, $30,000 or probably more per year. [00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:58.520] And I would be willing to wager and submit that my efficiencies in terms of ability [00:19:58.520 --> 00:20:08.200] to get work done, know how to move and pivot through projects like water that I could [00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:20.160] save money, probably do more projects, take more work on, or help manage junior people [00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:33.520] and provide far more value than they're paying for even with the extra money. [00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:41.680] Older workers make your business better because we have been there and done that. [00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:44.320] It's pretty simple. [00:20:44.320 --> 00:20:53.560] We've had more trips around the sun and that makes us inherently more qualified simply [00:20:53.560 --> 00:21:04.480] because we've been alive longer.